Jason Knight

The less code you use, the less there is to break

Sep 13, 2018

I gotta echo what Marco Alka said, learn to do everything you currently know how to do without the crutches that are frameworks. or in many cases they're not crutches, they're hobble skirts... in some cases they're even a sledgehammer to the shins ala "Misery"

Until you can do it without the frameworks, you aren't qualified to know if what the framework is doing is the correct way, most efficient way, or even the simplest way. This is why beginners should NEVER be allowed anywhere near "frameworks" and why MOST of the big fancy popular ones are -- to be brutally frank with a highly unpopular opinion -- incompetent nonsense.

More so if you take the time to learn those underlying langauges -- and to use them PROPERLY with full separation of concerns -- you may in fact find that EVERYTHING you've been sold on said frameworks is nothing more than one giant lie rooted in apathy, ignorance, and wishful thinking; propagated not through actual merit, but from the same propaganda techniques and psychological failings such as bandwagon, glittering generalities, transfer, and card stacking that are the cornerstone of most major popular delusions; from garden variety snake oil peddling to "monuments to the stupidity of mankind" such as faith.

How are you at working with proper semantics, FULL separation of presentation from content and behavior from content so you don't have HTML full of things that flat out don't belong there? How well does what you're working on handle if client-side in the browser scripting is blocked? What about users on non-screen media targets? Are you derping in classes presentationally like "text-center", "clearfix", or "w3-red" or are you keeping your HTML saying what things ARE, and not what you want them to look like.

REMEMBER, 99.99% of the time what things look like has ZERO business in your markup. Anyone telling you otherwise isn't qualified to be writing HTML, CSS, or JavaScript! Yes, that includes every single person making or using so-called "front-end" frameworks like bootcrap or w3.css. UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY UNQUALIFIED to write a single blasted line of HTML!!!

But Joe forbid anyone come right out and say any of that.

What can you do WITHOUT the frameworks?

Mahaveer

Web dev wannabe :D

Sep 13, 2018

XD that was a nice answer thanks a lot,

Without frameworks i think i can make simple websites. But not SPA type. And i've not used CSS Frameworks too much btw. I write most CSS myself at work except the grid system.

Mahaveer Thing is well written SPA's ("single page applications" should anyone who doesn't know what that is reads this) in most cases should -- if the plan is for users to use it in a browser and not in a standalone like nw.js or electron -- be written FIRST as a static multi-page website.

That might sound odd, but good JavaScript should ENHANCE an already working page's functionality, not supplant it or be the only means of providing it. If you divide up the content and template properly server-side, there is rarely a legitimate reason you can't enhance a multi-page site into acting as a SPA. In fact it can be SIMPLER to implement it that way in many cases because it lest you build progressively.

... and progressive enhancement is one of the keys to making sites that gracefully degrade be it for device limitations or accessibility.

As the old saying goes:

"If you can't build a fully functioning website without client-side JavaScript first, you likely have no business adding scripting to it."

That's really where a lot of the whole CSR (client side rendering) thing goes bits-up face down, resulting in websites that are nothing more than a giant middle finger to users with accessibility needs or who have scripting blocked/disabled/unavailable for whatever reason. reasons like locked down workplaces, blocking scripts due to bandwidth limitations, just plain not trusting it...

But again, if building standalone apps for electron, metro, nw.js, etc, the above doesn't really apply since no scripting, no application... but if it's going to be run in a normal browser by normal users, well.

I think that -- along with a lack of grasping semantics and separation of presentation from content -- is where a lot of people screw up using web technologies. Hence why SO many websites unintentionally tell users with accessibility needs to sod off; pathetic when meeting accessibility needs is one of the core concepts of what HTML is even for.

Of course we'd have even less of said problem if people would just take HTML seriously, instead of scoffing at it for "not being a real programming language" or being "so easy". If it's so blasted easy why do dev's -- including many alleged "experts" -- screw up so much and end up utterly ignorant of the most basic concepts of it?!?

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