Jason Knight

The less code you use, the less there is to break

Sep 2, 2017

That's probably because unbiased information about HTML/CSS frameworks would tell you that if you knew the first blasted thing about HTML or CSS -- specifically semantics and separation of concerns -- you'd realize that such 'frameworks' like Bootcrap are nube predating ignorant bloated nonsense!

You end up with non-semantic markup, endless pointless DIV for nothing, endless pointless PRESENTATIONAL classes slopped all over the place so bad you might as well go back to writing HTML 3.2 and pretending CSS didn't even exist, learn layout 'concepts' that really have little business on websites in the first place if you actually care about accessibility...

... and to be BRUTALLY frank, I've yet to see one that actually lives up to the wild nonsensical claim of their being any 'easier' or 'simpler' -- much less the utter rubbish of it making you more productive.

As a rule of thumb, they make you write two to five times the HTML needed, as much of your own CSS as you'd probably have without the framework if you just knew CSS, end up a specificity nightmare that makes maintenance an ungodly headache where you spend hours pouring over the document inspector trying to track down what's applying that rule you can't seem to override...

I'll never understand how anyone who grasps the concept of what HTML is FOR (saying what things are, NOT what they look like) and what CSS is for (customizing appearance for different media targets) could by choice choose a so called HTML/CSS framework like bootcrap, yui, etc. I've NEVER seen a site built with them that couldn't have been less code, simpler code, with 100% the functionality and 90% the artsy stuff WITHOUT the framework...

How writing more code that relies on more code that makes more code that's harder to maintain somehow magically becomes "eaiser"?!? I'll never understand that. Though to be fair I say the same thing about the <style> tag and 98%+ of the time people use style="".

Particularly when they go and piss all over the markup with that OOCSS style asshattery such as:

Needless to say, my opinion on the whole subject is far from popular; harsh light of truth is often that way:

cutcodedown.com/article/HTML_CSS_and_JS_frameworks

Tyler Dover

Learning is a lifelong journey

Sep 2, 2017

Thing is, I don't plan to learn the frameworks. I plan to learn of them in the event that an employer requires me to use it. But kudos to giving your opinion on the matter, although it is entirely biased because you got so worked up over it.

If I sound "worked up" it's because my bread and butter for development the past ten years is from bailing people OUT of problems created by these frameworks, particularly in regards to accessibility norms, fines, and court cases. So yeah, there's some bias there.

You put these on a mission critical site like a bank, utility, health care related, or government agency, do NOT be surprised if it lands you in court.

... and yeah, I had to learn them too; so I could fix the messes or at least be able to tell what the mess IS. Eventually in most cases where big money is on the line _(worst case I was involved in was a bank that got fined the equivalent of $50K US a DAY for the failings until fixed, with an extra half a mil on top) _I eventually came to the conclusion that the fastest way to fix a lot of sites using this stuff was to start over from scratch, that's how banjaxed the codebases were.

So I'm used to seeing them on their worst day.

It also means having learned them AND seen them at their worst, I know just where to stick the knife and twist when talking about them in a way that throws the fanboys of things like Bootcrap absolutely apoplectic.

I've seen whole web development companies sued out of existence over this stuff, but it's damned near forbidden to DARE to badmouth these technologies because "but eet es teh eazies!"... makes it almost like giving cultists -- or really any person of faith -- facts that contradicts their established confirmation bias.

Oh, and if you want to learn them, in terms of just HTML/CSS learn Bootstrap and really don't worry too much about the others. In terms of full stack I'd highly suggest angular and react next as those are about as common. The lesser ones just don't have the mass appeal traction.

Learning them for the purpose of fixing them or when you're forced to deal with them is a good idea; though my experience the past decade or so has resulted in my now saying unless it's being thrown away, you don't have enough money to make me deal with throwing silver bullets at it.

Search Hashnode