E.g. women or non-white people are underrepresented in tech. Should they be given preferential treatment during the hiring process?
This is a follow-up of hashnode.com/post/would-you-comment-on-a-sexist-j… (which I didn't post).
When preferential treatment is given, is it necessary counter-discrimination? Or not discrimination at all?
If you prefer underrepresented groups, is it for ethical reasons? Or are you getting an advantage by getting great workers that other companies don't hire for discriminatory reasons?
Josh Montgomery
web developer
Any hiring based upon any non-skill or non-personality traits is clearly absurd. I don't understand why all of this has to be such a big deal... It's a very simple thing:
Hiring should be PRIMARILY based upon 2 things:
THAT'S IT.
The race, gender, color, favorite cake, orientation, etc stuff should have absolutely no part in the decision. Let's think about this logically for a second:
According to Merriam-Webster, the b definition for "discrimination" is as follows:
the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually
One of the definitions for "discriminate" is as follows:
to make a distinction
Thus, by dictionary definition, ANY CATEGORICAL DISTINCTION based on any group is discriminatory. This means "Women only" is discrimination, this means "men only" is discrimination, this means "Chinese people only" is discrimination, this means "Everyone except Indian people" is discrimination, this means "15-20 year olds only" is discrimination, this means "people who have a master's degree" is discrimination... Discrimination is just categorically defining someone by a trait other than their individuality, by the definitions shown. And that's the case no matter if 5 million people say so or not; the dictionary says so.
It's not subjective; there's an actual factual definition of what discrimination is. The question is "how much discrimination is okay?" or "in what situations is allowing discrimination okay?" And that's a whole other ball game.
Discrimination occurs everywhere. What are the chances of me becoming a server at a Hooters restaurant? How about getting onto a women's dance team? How about becoming a cheerleader? How about being a hairstylist?
How about at the door of a nightclub where the bouncers are letting women in free and men they are charging $20? This kind of stuff happens everywhere all the time, at least here in the USA. I think the problem is much larger than people think. People pick and choose when they think discrimination is a problem but the reality is, nearly everyone discriminates in some form or another every day.
Overall competence in
are the only set of requirements that should matter in hiring people. I don't believe you can code your way out of your skin colors, gender and sexual preferences.
I really like turtles. Have you played with LOGO before? Also, i tend to prefer people with better on the job abilities and team fitness. If there is a tie, i will most probably prefer the “minorities” be them black, women, queer, or whatever.
As an employer, the most important thing is to keep the business going and going well.
Edit:
M has a good point that if you test enough, no two candidates will be equal. That’s true, but you can’t test forever. Here’s how i do it:
I think there should be a quota until work places fairly represent the population of any country. In South Africa they have the BEE Black Economic Empowerment, where basically make companies hire a certain amount of non-white people.
To favor minorities in a discriminatory way will just be passing the discrimination to another group, then in the future that group will need again this favor, and then another group will need that favor and so on. In my opinion the most short term thing to do is to put as little personal information as necessary into the eyes of the person with the decision making process to counter discrimination.
I like the option "favour a little" even though it doesn't mention how much is too much. IMHO, "a little" should be only a tiebreaker. If you have candidates of the same or very similar qualifications. Then I'd favour minorities. But for the most part, talent and attitude trump all.
The only quotas I'd try to have is at the start of the hiring funnel. So I'd give equal chances for all candidates but never a guarantee of equal representation of the hired.
WDYT?
I'm 100% for strict quota enforcement. I'm a pessimist when it comes to our ability to self-govern without bias. People aren't going to change, so someone must force them to do the right thing. Top-down pragmatism is the way to go.
Hiring should be always on the skill basis.
Not on minority, majority, women, disability political correctness crap.
Get things done. Business should be about profit, not charity.
Don't play hero of equality and inclusiveness. That is going to destroy more companies and the talent than anything.
Having set quotas won't change a thing if the people in a given organization are backwards thinking. They will hire minorities, but that doesn't mean that they will change their mindset. Working in a place where people silently disapprove of you because of your nationality, gender, sexuality, disability .... is also not healthy for that person.
I'm not sure what the best approach is, but simply being aware that minorities and women are having a much harder time than average people to reach top positions certainly helps. Some of the most hardworking people I've ever met belong to certain minorities. However, I'm not saying that companies should hire people who don't have the necessary skills for the job.
In my previous company, we helped Rails Girls to hold free workshops for women, and some people from the company volunteered as mentors. This type of positive reinforcement makes a lot of sense to me. Also, I think that governments should shield women from getting fired when they get pregnant - which is a trend from all over the world.
Also, here's an excellent post from a woman who has worked for quite a while in tech in which she describes what she has gone through. Basically, speaking up at work when someone belittles minorities can help more than you think. Some people find it hard to find the right words when someone attacks them for no reason. I know I do.
I've been in situations where people talked thrash about LGBTQ people in general, and I've never found it hard to stand up to them. However, it took me years to learn what exactly to say those situations, how to keep my voice down, and how to behave and keep the discussion civil. And that's hard when you feel attacked and offended.
Be an ally and keep in mind that minorities often suffer from impostor syndrome, which makes it difficult for them to express how good they are for a certain position. I've personally gone through that phase and know how hard it is to get out of that mindset.
So, instead of just interviewing people, give them a task and see what they can do and if they're the right fit for that position, don't base all of your judgment just off of an interview or whether you'd like to hang out with that person after work.
I pick minorities for another reason ... they usually had to work harder to get where they are now.
I am not really pro quota in commercial fields. I would however, on a superficial-skill level prefer a minority. In the end I test them anyway and if they don't perform we need to find a way to improve their performance or part ways.
So no, I would not pick a person purely on an ethical level, I would not discriminate them either. Same goes for people with disabilities. People in our field already have to be smart and a minority has a whole different system to fight against as well .... they are probably determined and I like devs with focus.
Besides ... I often like their food gg and they know where to get the good stuff ...
Hasen Judi
Disillusioned Web Developer
Hiring people based on their "identity" to fill quotas is plain stupid. Have a diverse work force by all means, but let it arise naturally. Don't try to fill quotas.
I'm a visible minority and I would absolutely hate to discover that I'm hired just to fill a minority quota.